Butzzell Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 S! All In Wen discussion, someone mentioned having an additional hidden target. I mentioned at that time that I was trying to come up with a different level bomber target to replace the planes on the aerodrome attack mission. I believe Klaiber brought up the work being done on Zeppelin bases by the 3D modelers. Well, it is now time to try and put this all together. I believe that the Aerodrome attack mission can be modified by replacing the planes with a balloon on the ground. A balloon is not a Zeppelin but we have to work with what we have. This gives us a larger target that is easier to see. To prevent low level attack a couple more AAA trucks are added. This would be 6 low level and only 2 for high level. This brings up several options: 1. Leave Aerodrome attack as a designated target as we have been doing. 2. Since the Balloon is easy to see, make aerodrome attack a hidden target that must be found. 3. Combine the balloon with the current hidden recon target. The balloon will make it easier to find the active recon target. Bombers can then be called in to kill the balloon. Recons would still trigger an additional target when they land. Comments: Options 1 and 2 create more targets that are spread out on the map and thus spread out flights. Option 3 combines mission locations but creates more room to change locations from session to session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRFC Hawkeye Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 My vote, prefer option 1 or option 3 Snaggle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaggle Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 1+ to Hawks vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butzzell Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 S! Another thing to consider, if the aerodrome is combined with the recon target ( option 3 ), it changes the allocation of pilots. You have to wait till you find it to task a bomber crew. Option 1 gives you a target at the start. You can put people in the air. Operations officer decision. The target is known. Attack now and spread out your forces or leave it for later and keep more people on other targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRFC Hawkeye Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 ..... if the aerodrome is combined with the recon target ( option 3 ), it changes the allocation of pilots. You have to wait till you find it to task a bomber crew..... What if the tasked bomber crew found it first and destroyed it (whether the recon plane flew together with the bomber, or not) ? Would the recon part still work properly? I am not clear why we use objects on airfields to determine the destruction of the airfield. Why do we not just use the destruction of the hangers and buildings to determine success or failure? Although there was definite problems with using parked aircraft as the targets that determined success due to the pilot often surviving regardless of the fact the planes were completely destroyed, it seems like a balloon is an awfully big target to hit.....would it become too easy? Could the three ground planes be replaced by objects of similar size, that do not defy destruction as often as the planes with pilots inside do? I think the original idea was good, the only problem was that it sometimes took too much ordinance to make sure the pilots in the planes were killed in order to get credit for the airfield destruction. Please correct my ignorance if my assumptions are wrong.....I don't claim any direct experience in these matters, only what I've heard from others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butzzell Posted January 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 S! Hawkeye, The recon target is the AAA gun. If we swapped it out for the Balloon, I am not sure it would work if it was destroyed before the recon was there. The problem with the game in general is the number of "Linked Entities" available. The recommendation is to not use more than 80. We are using about 280 linked entities. It works because we have about 55 or less active at any one time. This leaves room to turn on AAA at targets or over the front when needed. Things like trucks or ships can be turned on or off. When a secondary target is enabled the target objects are activated at that time. Most secondary targets have been either trucks or tanks. Lately some of these have been swapped out for static ships at a dock. Only one entity instead of 4. The problem is with buildings. Buildings can not be turned on or off. This is shown with factories, We have 4 factories on each side. That makes 8 entities alive for the whole session. Now do not get tricky here. Yes, they are all alive but only the designated target will bring success. When the target is killed it taps a counter. That counter activates the destroyed subtitle and tells the target total board of the success. You can kill the other factories but their counters have been disabled and will not register success. Many of the pilots liked the level bombing target we did in FiF XVIII which was the England map. I have been working on trying to place a second level bomber target. The problem has been to stay away from buildings. The Aerodrome attack looked good in FiF XIX. It was a spread out group of small planes and was therefore a low altitude target. I tried changing it to big bombers for FiF XX. It looked good but we were having several new problems. I think it was too much AI because of the bombers. Changed the target back to 3 small planes. Worked better. Small planes were hard to see from over 2k altitude but it still worked. Going to a Balloon diminishes the AI load and the number of entities. Yes it is fairly easy to kill with a level bomber. Down low, it is a another story. There are 6 AAA guns down low. I have not tried it with bombs down low, as most of the balloons are about 80 meters above the ground. If you can kill it with guns in a single pass you have about a 90% chance of being buried on the spot. Very dangerous indeed. I think the Balloon is an easy target for a level bomber. I am not that good at level bombing but have had success every time. Being a fighter pilot, I see the goal of the aerodrome attack is to drag enemy over my territory where I can shoot down this big fat goose. If we did go with buildings, we would need to use an identical target for both sides. Aerodromes actually use a lot of AI. Maybe the big factory oil drums? Fuel depot raid? Buildings can have their hit points altered so that it would take more bombs than the small planes can carry. The main problem with any air sim is that it ends up being a bomber game. We have done ok with having a recon, trench map. arty spot, and a spy mission. Adding a second high level bomber mission adds some variety for the bomber pilots. What would be very nice is a new 2 seater mission that did not involve bombs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butzzell Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 S! I did a quickie alteration and put in oil drums. Trucks and boxes are static objects like houses. They look like ,,,,, at 8 k feet At 1 k feet And down close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaggle Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Oil drums good target IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRFC Hawkeye Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Thanks for the explanation, sir Butzzell! I think I see your logic and concerns, and have confidence in your superior intellect I see you're already trying the oil drums on the Eastern front map. Thanks to you and your helpers for the good work you always do!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butzzell Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2015 Klaiber had some suggestions to work on. Blinding the enemy: Give balloons a little bit better cover up high and deadly down low like the front. If you kill all the enemy balloons you have limited their intel along the front. Counts as a mission. Reprisal for dastardly action: Make a target such as a train, ship factory or aerodrome give a secondary mission to the enemy! Basically subtitle would be something much smaller than "The Red Cross reports bomber action by Entente forces on The Pomacle aerodrome resulted in the nearby village being damaged as well. Of special mention was the complete destruction of the local orphanage. Over 20 sisters of the order of St. Lucius were killed or wounded along with over 73 orphans. Entente forces in the area should expect Reprisal action from the German forces." Something similar for the Central side." Those Bastards!!! They killed Kenny!!!" Lets bomb their Drome!!!" Target selection for what would be a war crime is random along with what the reprisal target would be. Reprisal target would probably be a level bomber target of some type preferable a military target. Bombing an enemy civilian target would not be acceptable. 2 wrongs don't make a right. These ideas are interesting and very easy to do. They would add 2 more missions to future FiF events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRFC Hawkeye Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Nice! Any possibility of a purely defensive mission(s) in the future? For example, the successful defense of a target gives the defending team points. The other team would have to attack the target in order to deny the defending team the points, not for any direct points for themselves. If they don't attack, they cede the points to the other side. This would have the effect of splitting the forces of any one side. The more defensive targets you define, the more it encourages it. Mainly it would help discourage going fully offensive and completely ignoring the defense of one's territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butzzell Posted February 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 S! Defensive missions sound good. Could you elaborate a little on your expectations of what the mission would be or is it more of a scoring thing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRFC Hawkeye Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I guess mainly a scoring thing. You'd define certain targets to defend (for points). Think of it as just another objective for an offensive mission; except your assigned task is to defend something successfully. In this way, you get some portion of your points for offensive missions, and some for defensive ones. This would be to discourage the behavior of completely ignoring the defensive aspect of the game. It would also have the effect of bringing opposing forces together as opposed to searching aimlessly for enemies attacking targets whose location is completely unknown to you. The thing you'd have to figure out in terms of game play, is the balance you want, with respect to offense vs. defense. You masterminds of gaming fun could figure that out. Or, everyone could decide that 100% offense, 0% defense is the best way to leave things. The way things are now, it's very possible to get to a point at which spending any resources on defending anything is a waste of time. At that point, one side may decide that's it's over, and not show up anymore....kind of like throwing in your hand at cards when you know the outcome of the rest of the tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaggle Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 My 2 cents. Since it looks like we will be switching sides after each event. There would be 10 offensive targets and hence 10 defensive targets. Offensive side gets point for completion of each target Defensive side gets point for each target offensive side fails to complete. So the offensive side just doesn't do kamikaze attacked, for each 2 planes lost or 4 planes whatever number is deemed fair, they lose a point. Planning needed to complete mission and get the planes home. This could be set up and run as a test to see what is fair as far as plane lose on an off night before an official event. ******* Separate note: Would still like to see a home defense mission done at dusk to night, WWI Bliz of London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butzzell Posted February 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ok, a lopsided event where one group defends and the other attacks. Np . Got it set up on the Russian map. Russians attack with S-22 bomber, Fe2b and DH2 as fighter. At this point Germans whoops, Austrians have Fokker E3. Now, counting planes is a real no no. Since only 2 high level targets , only 2 S-22 allowed. That leaves 8 other missions. How about only 4 Fe2b. You have to save some if you are going to bomb all targets or do all missions. Is 4 too few? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRFC Hawkeye Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Not exactly what I had in mind, but that means nothing. How do you envision that working in an actual event.....running each session once as offenders, and then again as defenders, and then moving on to the next session? That certainly would change things very radically from what we have now. Also I think the offensive side has some built in advantages in terms of target destructability, causing some lopsided numbers needed in terms of offense vs. defense. Probably a lot of thought needs to go into this. Small, incremental changes couldn't hurt. The plane set you've chosen above does lend itself to a more even balance between offense and defense. Later ones could be more of a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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