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#1 Vonrd

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 01:33 AM

Jason just posted this today:

 

https://forum.il2stu...#comment-637218


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#2 Ludwig

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:13 AM

Well.... just my opinion but that is a real shame, I was very hopeful that they would move forward and make FC into something I could enjoy.  I simply cannot abide by the RoF flight models, they are absurd. He is glowingly telling of how the pilots are going to look so wonderful....  wow... that to me is about as bad as it can be... definitely under the WHO CARES section.

 

  Now I see this:

 

For us to bring WWI to you in any reasonable amount of time, we have decided to use the Flight Models from ROF for our Flying Circus planes.

 

Well... that's game over for me right there....  that makes FC exactly what I feared, eye candy that will cost even more than RoF did... and for what... so you can have pretty pilots.

 

WELL... I wrote quite a bit more about this subject, but I deleted it... no need to belabor the point. ..............   then I got to thinking about this... so one more missive..........

 

 

 

 

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   4 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

Let's hope that it sells well - the screenies show that it will look better (love the pilots!), but at the same time also shows very clearly that it's a repeat of RoF as far as the aircraft are concerned. As I own everything that came out for RoF what is the real incentive to stump up for it all again? FC is even going to use the same FMs. I want it to succeed but am slightly dubious as to its chances - unlike Tank Crew which looks like it will fill a big need for a lot of folks. I still play RoF offline so will probably get hooked by this; let's hope a few others do as well.

 

If you ever want new WWI planes to become a reality you really should support FC1.

 

Jason

 

 

Well Folks....    to me......that is a threat ......     if you are going to buy into this product...  you better fall in line and pay your money and shout down the people that don't like it.... or you are going to end up with a half finished crappy flight sim (that you already own)  with about 4 planes.... because it sure sounds to me that this is a "flyer" that 777 is taking to make some money with minimal effort and if it stumbles out of the gate.... well... to say that ol Jason has his finger on the trigger to punch off the load would not be an exaggeration.

 

I apologize in advance to the die hard fans of RoF that have a great respect and enjoyment for the game, I know you are quite loyal and don't want to hear such things, I am also appreciative of the fact that I am allowed to express such an opinion here which is solely my own and meant for no other reason than expressing my own personal disappointment... I would have REALLY enjoyed this if they had made it even half as good as Cliffs of Dover which is not a great flight sim by any means at all... but at least it isn't ridiculous as the flight models in RoF.   I enjoyed RoF....  because of the fun I had with you guys,  the sim itself was a massive disappointment.

 

(on another note.... Cliffs of Dover 5.0 still.... looks really good)


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#3 Shadepiece

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:58 AM

My post just got wiped, but long story short is that no other devs are taking a shot at WWI, and I'd really love to have WWI stuff in the scene to hopefully generate more support for it so that hopefully one day they do decide to update the FMs, and when they do new planes they'll have to do updates anyhow.

I'll be buying not because I'm blindly supporting 777 or WWI content, but because I realize that this opportunity doesn't look like it'll come around again. It's not a good argument to convince anyone else to also buy in, but I know I will be. I do hope that in doing so it is to increase that chance of more quality content to be developed.
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#4 Britchot

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 05:28 AM

RoF in VR as beautiful as IL-2: BoX, has me sold, it is my primary reason for fully backing FC. 

 

I do hope, based on interest, they will fix the flight model issues that stand out in RoF with the income of sales.  This reduces R&D on a whole new FM and instead, they can use the profits to fund new aircraft as well as go back to the ones that are wrong.   


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#5 Vonrd

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 06:05 AM

I'll be getting it 'cause I'm a Junkie (God, grant me the serenity...)

 

I do also want to support them and, so far they're the only ones doing a WW1 sim (WOFF doesn't count for me since there's no multiplayer / online and it's also based on an ancient game engine).

 

I don't begrudge them making money from their ventures, I seriously doubt there is a large profit margin. I think they are all passionate about WW1 and WWII historical sims and actually do put a lot of research into what they are trying to simulate.

BOx has seen continual and steady improvements since release.

 

As to the FMs, maybe they will work on them in the distant future but I don't see them spending any time on it until their WWII stuff is fully realized. Especially after the drubbing they got by all the trolls on their last attempt to adjust the FMs. If I was on the receiving end of such vitriol, I would certainly tell all to take a flying #$%& (which is basically what they did) and move on. (But, on the other hand they are using contractors so, maybe...)


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#6 Luftritter

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 12:52 PM

I'll say this:  using the same FM's is one thing, but it goes back to the same old attitude they had for RoF.  If they can't make better ones in the first place, for the planes that need them (not that many, IMO), then it's basically an admission that they're incapable (incompetent?) to make new ones, and are just afraid to mess with the old ones; so it's obvious that they'll never fix any issue having to do with FMs in FC.  What does that imply?  They'll never make any plane that they don't already have in RoF.  Really?  The best I can expect is that someday, after spending a ton of money, is to get back to what I once had with RoF?

 

That guy's statement has me scared off, already.  He's ALREADY saying that it's possible they won't support FC, just like how they quit on RoF....before the new sim has even come out!  "Keep forking out the money, or we'll stop it dead right where it's at".  Well, that wouldn't be such as big deal, EXCEPT that nobody can determine exactly what they consider adequate support;  you and everybody you know could pour all of the money into the sim that they offer you to pay for, and they STILL could say "sorry, it's not enough, we're not making any more planes".  It's all based on their own perceptions or business model, and we have no idea how viable it is.  To put this into context, we should consider that I, and a whole lot of others in this squadron, DID put everything that we possibly could into RoF, and they STILL ended all development and (update) support for it; all based on what they considered adequate support.

 

There is one HUGE factor that now needs to occur, if the planes are going to fly just like they do in RoF:  they better have a response curve utility incorporated into the sim that's equal to, or better than what RoF already has, which is adjustable for EVERY INDIVIDUAL PLANE, just like it is now.  If they go to some lame thing like they have in BoX which is one size fits all, it's going to make it IMPOSSIBLE to proficiently fly many of the planes, thereby making them useless, nobody will use them, everybody will gravitate toward the "easy to fly" planes like the Albatros series.  Almost EVERY PLANE in RoF does not fly level at neutral stick, and that makes a huge difference in how they maneuver and how controllable they are in combat.  That one parameter alone is IMPOSSIBLE to adjust in BoX, and not nearly as necessary because the planes have trim adjustments, something almost every plane in RoF lacks.

 

There are only 2 ways to overcome the FMs in RoF, and by extension, FC:  1) you compensate for them using the response curve feature, or 2) you buy an expensive, long shaft joystick and expensive, wide-stance pedals to naturally desensitize the controls through the entire range, like guys like 1PL_Sahaj has been doing since day one.  In short, you'd have to recreate the controls they had in WWI on these planes.  How many people do you think are going to pour that kind of money and physical setup effort into a duplicate of RoF, if it's unnecessary in RoF itself?

 

Honestly, I think I'm going to hold off from buying FC until one of you buys it, and tells me that the response curve feature is part of the game.

 

One other thing, for them to force you to buy the new sim, they're going to have to end all support, meaning server support, and free game downloads, for RoF.  Expect that shortly after FC releases; they have to, they can't have their old game competing with their new one. 


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#7 Baron

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 01:49 PM

Relax guys. I testing Dr.1 and Spad XIII from FC just now, and this is not old RoF. This is different game, not only in graphic. Very simply - i was really stunned when i had first flight in new planes. I cant say more now but im sure that WW1 fans will be happy with final product.


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#8 Snaggle

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 02:54 PM

Relax guys. I testing Dr.1 and Spad XIII from FC just now, and this is not old RoF. This is different game, not only in graphic. Very simply - i was really stunned when i had first flight in new planes. I cant say more now but im sure that WW1 fans will be happy with final product.

 

IMO: any one that would know it would be Baron! So if all holds true and I can fly in VR, it would be really difficult to not to make the jump to FC.

 

All this talk gets me kind of excited to WW1 again, the main reason for my recent absence.

 

S!


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#9 Shadepiece

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 04:45 PM

I think Kliegmann could probably shed some light on what they had to do to port them in. I recall a conversation we had about that topic. I think there will be improvement, and I am frankly very excited.

When is the pre-order going to be available??
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#10 Vonrd

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 05:07 PM


 

There is one HUGE factor that now needs to occur, if the planes are going to fly just like they do in RoF:  they better have a response curve utility incorporated into the sim that's equal to, or better than what RoF already has, which is adjustable for EVERY INDIVIDUAL PLANE, just like it is now.  If they go to some lame thing like they have in BoX which is one size fits all, it's going to make it IMPOSSIBLE to proficiently fly many of the planes, thereby making them useless, nobody will use them, everybody will gravitate toward the "easy to fly" planes like the Albatros series.  Almost EVERY PLANE in RoF does not fly level at neutral stick, and that makes a huge difference in how they maneuver and how controllable they are in combat.  That one parameter alone is IMPOSSIBLE to adjust in BoX, and not nearly as necessary because the planes have trim adjustments, something almost every plane in RoF lacks.

 

There are only 2 ways to overcome the FMs in RoF, and by extension, FC:  1) you compensate for them using the response curve feature, or 2) you by an expensive, long shaft joystick and expensive, wide-stance pedals to naturally desensitize the controls through the entire range, like guys like 1PL_Sahaj has been doing since day 1.  In short, you'd have to recreate the controls they had in WWI on these planes.  How many people do you think are going to pour that kind of money and physical setup effort into a duplicate of RoF, if it's unnecessary in RoF itself?

 

 

Very good point!


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#11 Baron

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 07:29 PM

IMO: any one that would know it would be Baron! So if all holds true and I can fly in VR, it would be really difficult to not to make the jump to FC.

 

All this talk gets me kind of excited to WW1 again, the main reason for my recent absence.

 

S!

 

Yes friend, VR is fully implemented to FC planes. Personally i have not VR (using TrackIr 4), but other testers, who have HTC, Oculus etc, flying now Dr.1 and Spad only  :lol:


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#12 Luftritter

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 12:48 AM

Relax guys. I testing Dr.1 and Spad XIII from FC just now, and this is not old RoF. This is different game, not only in graphic. Very simply - i was really stunned when i had first flight in new planes. I cant say more now but im sure that WW1 fans will be happy with final product.

 

Maybe true, but I heard from your guys that the SPAD XIII you tested is too slow by far.  Since you are an alpha (or beta) tester, it seems possible to me that they have evaluated what you've been given, and (based on your feedback?) found it lacking; and possibly just given up and made the decision to just use what's already been developed?

 

Who is to be believed?  Either they're using the RoF flight models as is, or they're not.

 

Which is it?


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#13 Britchot

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 02:55 AM

Keep in mind, certain NDAs have been agreed upon and information may not be available, publicly.
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#14 Ricky Recon

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 03:32 AM

Has anyone said "it's just a game, fokker" yet?

;)

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#15 Baron

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 03:34 AM

Maybe true, but I heard from your guys that the SPAD XIII you tested is too slow by far.  Since you are an alpha (or beta) tester, it seems possible to me that they have evaluated what you've been given, and (based on your feedback?) found it lacking; and possibly just given up and made the decision to just use what's already been developed?

 

Who is to be believed?  Either they're using the RoF flight models as is, or they're not.

 

Which is it?

 

Britchot is right - i cant say about testing more like before. What can i say is question for you: when i take old FM to new engine with different physic - will be the FM the same like before?  :)


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#16 Etzel

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 10:55 AM

From my perspective this never ending FM discussions lead to nowhere... I doubt that anyone today is able to tell if the behaviour of a plane in a computer game fits 100% to the behviour of this plane in air more than 100 years ago.... thinking of the highly manual process in complete production process I would even doubt, that the behaviour of each single plane out of the same series was 100% the same like its twins....

 

And Vonrd brought it to the point before: On this topic you can never statisfy everyones expectations, so I fully understand when developes surrender in between of those fights as I whatched them in the RoF forum.

 

Just my 2 cents regarding the reaction curves: In many years of RoF experience I flew every available plane in RoF (well, many of them not very successfull, but nevertheless...) and I _never_ did change any response-curve for any plane at all, I simply tried to get used to every behavoiur.... and yes, for the DrI that means continiously pushing down the stick....  ;)

 

Well, I have to admit that I don't use Force Feedback Joystick, maybe my approach on the response curves would be different then....  :D

 

But finally back to the great news as: As RoF is beside events like FiF or BA and BS de facto dead I am absolutly excited about the foreseeable come back of crowded WW1 skies…

 

I also enjoy the action in the different BoX planes meanwhile, but in the end I cannot deny that the slow and easy flyable WW1 birds are much more made for a lazy and convient guy like I am *g*


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#17 Etzel

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 12:11 PM

Finally one add, as I just did read the announcement in detail and compared those screenshots of FC with the ones out of RoF: These improved graphic engine for me is the most unimportant benefit of FC; in my opinion those additional detail level is nice to have but not more... 

But this should not be understood as depreciation of FC but as a reminder on what exceptional work they did on RoF, that was released meanwhile already 9 (!!) years ago…

 

So even if FC will not be more than a polished RoF with the VR posibility I am absolutly willing to pay the full price for this work, just to keep this project alive and hope to get soem day the full scope of RoF back again (maybe even some new features, like e.g. points for Recon Missions in the statistics*g*).


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#18 Hook

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 03:45 PM

I believe Baron has opened up the actual magic touch with his most recent question posed.  They have fine-tuned their core flight physics, and hopefully, that in itself will open up the old FMs to a certain degree.  The FC planes may all feel completely different and truly come into their prime in a more modern engine.  Only time will tell, and I remain skeptical.  I am hoping they have improved their damage model, and hit registration.  That feature alone will determine how quickly I jump to the new product.  Gunnery is my religion in these sims, and I am a zealous acolyte.  You don't have to be a good pilot if you can get the first shot, and make it hurt.     


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#19 Somnus

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 09:52 PM

I am a little miffed about having to re-build my plane collection again, especially if they're doing the bundle approach rather than a la carte like RoF.

 

Buuuuut... having just recently gotten an Oculus Rift, I have to say that I'm very excited about jumping back in with you guys on a server and playing in VR. The relatively uncomplicated nature of WWI planes (without all the switches and buttons) should make VR flying an absolute blast!



#20 Schäfer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 12:49 AM

Relax guys. I testing Dr.1 and Spad XIII from FC just now, and this is not old RoF. This is different game, not only in graphic. Very simply - i was really stunned when i had first flight in new planes. I cant say more now but im sure that WW1 fans will be happy with final product.

 

Great news! Rather than be reactive I wanted to wait as I knew that they would try and improve on the flight model. As to the eye candy? I love it. When can I preorder?  :D


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