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VR Tactics


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#1 Vonrd

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 02:21 AM

I'm fairly new to VR but I think there may be some adjustments needed in tactics if we are going to be effective when flying in VR (at the current level of sophistication).

 

The most glaring deficiencies when using VR (Flight Lead and Wing in VR) are:

 

  •  Spotting:

                                        There are settings that one can implement which greatly alleviate this problem (speaking strictly for BOx here). See this post: https://forum.il2stu...aste-settings-                                             for-best-spotting-rift-and-odyssey-updated/

  • Checking 6: 

                                        This is the real bugaboo for me... It's nearly physically impossible for me to check 6 since VR is one to one in head rotation. Try it. Unless you're an owl or Linda Blair there is no way to see                                              directly behind you by just turning your head. You can get there by swiveling your chair but I have to lift my feet off the rudder pedals and let go of the stick... not ideal. 

                                        This situation is especially deadly for the wingman when flying in the typical echelon formation since he is the most tasty target, he can't clear his own 6, and Lead certainly can't clear his 6                                              either.

                                        I suggest that (when both pilots are in VR) we adopt a line abreast formation with a good amount of separation (750 to 1000 meters). This will let each pilot of the element clear each others 6                                            to some extent. Additionally, the element should periodically(30 sec) check left 10 degrees for long enough for the trailing pilot to call "Clear" or "Oh S**T" (as appropriate), then back to                                                      original heading and then repeat to the right. All course changes should use turns (in place, Tac, etc.) to maintain the line abreast formation.

 

Those with more experience... what do you think? 


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#2 Barton

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 02:56 AM

A line abreast formation is a good one to use in any case though the distance should be more like 600 meter maximum. At 1k there is a bit too much separation to immediately support each other. But otherwise great suggestions. I’ll probably have more input after I pick up my own VR after thanksgiving.

#3 Vonrd

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 04:20 AM

I'm going to try it in single player with icons on so I can read the distance to see if 600 meters is actually enough to see far enough back to clear the other's 6. I agree that 1K may be a bit much but visibility IMHO Trumps  :P  being able to immediately support... if you don't see the bandit it's all moot.

 

(I was hesitant in jumping in on the VR but it IS SOOO immersive... I'm sure you will love it)


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#4 Britchot

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 09:20 AM

Flying on your leaders 5-7 has always been bad for mutual coverage. You should be more between 3-4 or 8-9. Too many times do I see a wingman fall behind and fail to speak up about being in position. Same goes for Leads flying at full cruise settings the whole time, pushing their wingman into the higher power settings to try and stay in position.

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#5 Luftritter

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 11:15 AM

Are there recommendations from anybody for standard video settings, TIR or otherwise?
"People who believe they are ignorant of nothing have neither looked for, nor stumbled upon, the boundary between what is known and unknown in the universe." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

#6 Lee

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 11:54 AM

Isn’t this exactly why the Germans developed the ‘Finger-four’ formation during the Spanish Civil War?

#7 Razwald

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 12:34 PM

I think I'm the only Vive user so I really can't help on settings.

 

It had never occured to me to turn icons on to see how far out I can spot a target. I will do that by Sunday night.

 

Checking six I take my hand off the throttle and grab the chair between my legs. It gives me some extra stability to turn around.  With that said I do that during a dog fight when I know someone is there.  I have flown very little  VR online and I can see myself not going to that extent to check my six in hopes that my wingman\flight leader is checking my six. VR or not, I have always been a fan of line abreast for this reason.


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#8 Lee

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 01:24 PM

I know the P-40 and Yak 1b have mirrors.

#9 Barton

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 05:09 PM

Not being so able to check six is probably a lot more realistic especially for 109s. I always thought I could see a lot more with TrackIR than I should be able to.
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#10 Razwald

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 05:31 PM

Not being so able to check six is probably a lot more realistic especially for 109s. I always thought I could see a lot more with TrackIR than I should be able to.

 

I like to think that everyone who has or has tried VR will admit that checking your six with Track IR isn't realistic.


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#11 Ludwig

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 09:36 AM

I just started working with VR and while it is great fun, it is really not something I would use if I was trying to play for score.  Track IR is much more efficient and....

 

 

I always thought I could see a lot more with TrackIR than I should be able to.

 

No kidding...    WAY more effective than trying to look out of the aircraft.  You constantly have to kick rudder to look behind you, something I rarely hear or see someone doing.  VR simply can't get behind... I tried a swivel chair and even revolving 180° failed to give me a clear look behind.  Also the graphics mean that I can only see a blur which turns into an aircraft which can later be identified. More realistic…  certainly... but you can't compete. 


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#12 Lipfert

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 12:52 PM

Kameraden,

 

For offline no issue with VR, spend most of my time checking out the scenery. But online I'm thinking TrackIR for myself personally.

 

S!


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#13 Luftritter

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 01:50 PM

The more I hear (and see) about VR from you guys, the more convinced I become not to buy it for flight sims.  I realize that immersive trumps success for a lot of people....but it never will for me.  Failure = frustration for me, and I will never get enjoyment out of that situation.  I ain't built that way.  Perhaps some day they will force VR over TIR, or maybe even make it a server side setting.  At that time I would join the VR side, knowing everybody is on a level playing field.  Until then, not.


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#14 Lee

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 02:45 PM

Nothing wrong with using TrackIR for war flying and VR for casual flying.

You just can’t beat the immersion of VR, but the current generation headsets arn’t there as far as resolution is concerned. That said, I play Elite Dangerous exclusively in VR, even though my 34 inch curved monitor renders photo real. It’s the difference between being in the simulation as opposed to looking in through a window from the outside.

The Oculus is first gen commercial VR. Second gen will double the resolution and third gen will double it again. I’ll be skipping the second gen. Third gen will require an all new computer and video card. BTW, third gen will really mess with our minds.

TrackIR is now and always will be the only way when seated to easily look behind. That’s the downside of the “reality” part of VR, you have to be able to twist your shoulders and neck 180 degrees to see behind like you do in real life. I’m a long time past being able to do that.
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#15 Luftritter

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 03:11 PM

If you think about it, if it ever became mandatory for everybody in a flight sim, the younger, more flexible and pain-free guys will do a lot better than us old guys....which is the way it is in the real world.  Probably as it should be, if reality is the primary concern!  Heck, I remember getting a sore neck when I first started using TIR.  Of course they said that was a sign that you just needed to speed up your curves.

 

Someday, maybe they'll add actual G effects too.  You'll wear a suit that inflates and has the opposite effect as a real G suit for pilots.  The more G's you pull in the sim, the more it inflates by your head and squeezes the blood away from your brain.  Then the young guys definitely will have the edge    :lol:  


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#16 Razwald

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 03:26 PM

The more I hear (and see) about VR from you guys, the more convinced I become not to buy it for flight sims.  I realize that immersive trumps success for a lot of people....but it never will for me.  Failure = frustration for me, and I will never get enjoyment out of that situation.  I ain't built that way.  Perhaps some day they will force VR over TIR, or maybe even make it a server side setting.  At that time I would join the VR side, knowing everybody is on a level playing field.  Until then, not.

 

You would be surprised how petty our complaints are. We went into it at the ground floor hoping for gold and we got silver. The future of VR should be great as long as people support it and the industry decides to move forward. Better resolution at a reasonable price.

 

I'm not hear to convince people one way or the other. They both have there benefits and flaws.

 

 

 Spotting:

                                        There are settings that one can implement which greatly alleviate this problem (speaking strictly for BOx here). See this post: https://forum.il2stu...aste-settings-                                             for-best-spotting-rift-and-odyssey-updated/

  • Checking 6: 

                                        This is the real bugaboo for me... It's nearly physically impossible for me to check 6 since VR is one to one in head rotation. Try it. Unless you're an owl or Linda Blair there is no way to see                                              directly behind you by just turning your head. You can get there by swiveling your chair but I have to lift my feet off the rudder pedals and let go of the stick... not ideal. 

                                        This situation is especially deadly for the wingman when flying in the typical echelon formation since he is the most tasty target, he can't clear his own 6, and Lead certainly can't clear his 6                                              either.

                                        I suggest that (when both pilots are in VR) we adopt a line abreast formation with a good amount of separation (750 to 1000 meters). This will let each pilot of the element clear each others 6                                            to some extent. Additionally, the element should periodically(30 sec) check left 10 degrees for long enough for the trailing pilot to call "Clear" or "Oh S**T" (as appropriate), then back to                                                      original heading and then repeat to the right. All course changes should use turns (in place, Tac, etc.) to maintain the line abreast formation.

 

Those with more experience... what do you think? 

 

So I did some messing around with Box did an instant action with 2 flights of 190 vs La5 with icons on. Winter Clear no Clouds. Started 7000M apart which is about when the icon markers fade in. I could make out the targets but not 100% convinced I would have seen them yet. At 4000M yes I could see them for sure but  if I was scanning fast not sure but probably. 3000M yes with out a doubt I can spot a target with the exception of above me. I have problems spotting contacts above whether in VR or not. That is because of how they rendered the sky not me.

 

If it was a summer map the results could be different due to the fact I was looking at a white background.

 

As far as turning around I can almost get my shoulders 90* while keeping my feet on the pedals and both hands on the controls. My best guess this may be due to the fact of all the golf I play where I have a lot of upper body torque.


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#17 Luftritter

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 10:41 PM

That last paragraph, Raz, makes me wonder about the difference between reality and VR. You really shouldn't have to turn around a full 180 degrees to see behind you, should you? Your true field of vision is over 180 degrees, and although it is clear you can't see things clearly at the very edges of your field of view, you should be able to discern movement. Having detected movement, would you not then shackle or something to get a better view?

Just trying to figure out what the real problem is.
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"People who believe they are ignorant of nothing have neither looked for, nor stumbled upon, the boundary between what is known and unknown in the universe." -Neil deGrasse Tyson

#18 Snaggle

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 11:46 PM

Current VR fov is 100-110 degrees vice a person’s fov is 135 horizontal 180 vertical according to one resource.

The big thing is tir is unrealistic imo. Instead head turn up to over 180 degrees

The bigger issue is tir is an advantage over those using vr unless we use the tatics and procedures that were developed to protect your 6 think flying the Fe2b

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#19 Vonrd

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 11:56 PM

The real problem is that in RL you can swivel you eyeballs to get an additional 10 degrees or so which will allow you to see further behind with your head at the max swivel limit. Try it. I can see directly behind me with my orbs at max swivel. The only way this will work in VR is with an appx 180 deg field of view.

 

When I don't care that much about scoring (most of the time on open servers) I fly VR. If I'm flying (for now "simulated") DID, it will be TIR until the 3rd gen VR (if it allows more peripheral).

 

The original purpose for this post still stands... I believe we can make it better with tactics and ,as Barton said, these tactics can apply to non VR flying. 


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#20 Razwald

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 12:22 AM

That last paragraph, Raz, makes me wonder about the difference between reality and VR. You really shouldn't have to turn around a full 180 degrees to see behind you, should you? Your true field of vision is over 180 degrees, and although it is clear you can't see things clearly at the very edges of your field of view, you should be able to discern movement. Having detected movement, would you not then shackle or something to get a better view?

Just trying to figure out what the real problem is.

 

Good question. With TIR, you can set it so if you look at the left side of the screen,  you can see the 7, 6, and 5 o'clock position. You can hold your head there and scan the screen with your eyes. Also TIR allows you to lean which I'll address in a minute.

 

For me with the Vive the edges are blurry. If I hold my head at the gun sight and look at extreme edges with my eyes. Lets say engine temp. Its blurry.  I can tell its pointing in the right area but can't tell what it says. Same scenario, something like heading or altitude which is closer to the center of my view which in this case is the gun sight I can read with my eyes even though I'm looking at the gun sight.

 

Which brings us to the 6 o'clock position. First thing I need to mention is with VR you are  limited to movement with in the cockpit. There are boundaries set up. You can lean forward as much as you want but if you lean left or right too much your head hits the canopy. So if I can only get my head turned around good enough for a 7 O'Clock, the 6 O'Clock and tail will be blurry.

 

I can get my head twisted a bit further so the tail looks clear. This goes back to the line abreast. I think some of us will feel a bit better myself included, practicing in VR so we know our strengths and weaknesses.

 

I did find something interesting about VR.  I feel more comfortable fighting in the vertical then I did with TIR. I felt it awkward to move my head up to look up but keep my eyes on the screen. Made it difficult to fight especially if the target moves into a weird spot and my TIR would lock up or jump. I would lose vis and we all know that can be trouble.


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