Thoughts On Rudder Pedals Vs. Twist Rudder?

[TedsOnMeds]

Hey guys, sorry if this is in the wrong section/could be placed somewhere more appropriate;

When flying my first Tourney sortie yesterday I realized that WWI Aircraft can be a bit awkward to fly using a twist rudder due to having a lot of down-pressure on the stick in level flight and then having to twist your wrist as you point it away from yourself, any thoughts on this from other pilots who have/had twist rudder setups such as the X-52 I'm currently using or Similar? I'm just looking for what may be a bit more comfortable while flying and wanted to see if anybody else had similar experiences or recommendations for a cheap "Step up" from the twist rudder if proper pedals are actually more comfortable to fly with.

In VR, it's also a bit rough to find my controls, so freeing up two of the switches on my Stick quadrant that have brakes mapped to them with Toe brakes might be a boon as well. 

Thanks in advance, I always appreciate hearing the squadron's thoughts on things like this. 

[Moxy]

~S~ Ted!

Once you go to pedals you'll never go back. Even the Saitek now Logitec's feel right over the twist.

Logitec link....One of the Kickers of pedals, your chair to your pedals will have to be stationary. For reference, if your using an x52

the resolution of the twist, is twice the resolution of the of the Saitek pedals 1024 vs 512...so sensitivity of the twist is more finite.

But back in the day, and to test it out on the cheap, I made a Tee bar (added brakes later) out of plumbing nipples, and a $15.00 joy stick (loved em).

(Dont need brakes for WW1, But anything else more advanced, )

Mox

 

[TedsOnMeds]

26 minutes ago, Moxy said:

~S~ Ted!

Once you go to pedals you'll never go back. Even the Saitek now Logitec's feel right over the twist.

Logitec link....One of the Kickers of pedals, your chair to your pedals will have to be stationary. For reference, if your using an x52

the resolution of the twist, is twice the resolution of the of the Saitek pedals 1024 vs 512...so sensitivity of the twist is more finite.

But back in the day, and to test it out on the cheap, I made a Tee bar (added brakes later) out of plumbing nipples, and a $15.00 joy stick (loved em).

(Dont need brakes for WW1, But anything else more advanced, )

Mox

 

Oh that is HARDCORE - hahahahahaah. I will have to see if we have any simulators at school I can borrow which have pedals, Snaggle and Markov both also highly recommended pedals when I DM'd them on Discord about it so I think that may be the next upgrade I save for. 

[Britchot]

It's one of those upgrades that you make and look back and wonder how you ever lived without them. 

[J5_Hotlead]

+1 to all the above. They are spendy, but they provide that extra level of precision that is crucial in WW1 crates. They feature a bit of a learning curve too, but so totally worth it!

[TedsOnMeds]

Right on - so I guess the next step is the saving and choice. What do you guys think is good? I notice the Logitech and Saitek are the same design - anybody have experience with the Thrustmaster entry-level option?

T-master: https://www.amazon.com/ThrustMaster-2960764-Thrustmaster-TFRP-Rudder/dp/B015PII6YI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=4Z2LBKFB9791&dchild=1&keywords=Thrustmaster+rudder+Pedals&qid=1635120628&sprefix=thrustmaster%20rudder%20pedals%2Caps%2C110&sr=8-1

Logi: https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Pro-Flight-Rudder-Pedals/dp/B07R21FJD8/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3N26PHRCY15OU&dchild=1&keywords=Logitech+rudder+pedals&qid=1635120667&sprefix=logitech+rudder+pedal%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1

From what I can tell, the logitech look like they're a bit farther apart spacing wise - that might be more comfortable on long flights - and the adjustment for pressure is great, I use that on my Saitek throttle all the time so I'd imagine having an easy adjuster for that on the Pedals would also be a boon.

[Vonrd]

I've had the Logitech (Saitek) for several years and they are certainly adequate. The Thrustmasters are too close together for my taste. My next upgrade will probably be Crosswinds or some other high end set of pedals though, especially since I'm flying lots of helos now.

[TedsOnMeds]

11 minutes ago, Vonrd said:

I've had the Logitech (Saitek) for several years and they are certainly adequate. The Thrustmasters are too close together for my taste. My next upgrade will probably be Crosswinds or some other high end set of pedals though, especially since I'm flying lots of helos now.

I went and watched some reviews and this seems to mirror that sentiment - basically "Buy the logitech and use them until you feel like upgrading" Because everything else in the entry level bracket is too uncomfortable, or too much to justify for a slight quality increase over the Logis. 

[Moxy]

Logitec bought out Saitek,  their so to speak the same thing.

Ive had my Saitek's (same ones) for over 10 years now.

Good luck

Mox

[Reiher]

Have you checked out VKB’s option? I have a set of their T-Rudder pedals coming in that I’ve heard great things about for not much more price-wise than the Logitechs. All metal, precise and smooth motion, compact design. Only they don’t offer toe brakes and the motion isn’t like a typical horizontal rudder axis, but more of a vertical motion. I figured those would be more comfortable and easier to work with in a spinning chair than the traditional kind anyway. These will be my first pedals so I’ll be sure to give my first impression here soon whether they will be worth it or not over the ole faithful twist stick.

[TedsOnMeds]

8 minutes ago, Reiher said:

Have you checked out VKB’s option? I have a set of their T-Rudder pedals coming in that I’ve heard great things about for not much more price-wise than the Logitechs. All metal, precise and smooth motion, compact design. Only they don’t offer toe brakes and the motion isn’t like a typical horizontal rudder axis, but more of a vertical motion. I figured those would be more comfortable and easier to work with in a spinning chair than the traditional kind anyway. These will be my first pedals so I’ll be sure to give my first impression here soon whether they will be worth it or not over the ole faithful twist stick.

 
The T-Rudder series and the Logi were consistently the top two on the "Entry level rudder pedal" review articles. They do seem extremely enticing! I'm just not quite sure because they don't seem as popular as the logi's or other mainstream brand platforms 

[Vonrd]

The lack of toe brakes make them a no go for me. Toe brakes essential for me in many WWII Axis aircraft.

[TedsOnMeds]

7 minutes ago, Vonrd said:

The lack of toe brakes make them a no go for me. Toe brakes essential for me in many WWII Axis aircraft.

That seems like a big downside, as well. 

[Moxy]

Are there pedals out there without brakes? Other than DYI's.

"If the plane has brakes...got to have them. Cant conceive of pushing buttons, and or  "Blipping" all or nothing.

If its WW1, no brakes...you dont move your ankles. Still try in panic mode. (too fast geeez no breaks) lol

Mox

Just looked at the VKB's interesting...can one "program" IE differential braking in different sims?

[Bussard]

I went the route VKB Gladiator Mk II w/ Twist Stick > CH Pro Pedals and ended up in spring this year with MFG Crosswinds Pedals. So I know the differences between non Pedals, Entry Pedals and Premium Pedals very well. 

In my opinion you should do yourself a favor and buy directly reliable and precise pedals like the MFG Crosswinds. They are an investment for sure, but you won´t regret it.

They origin from Croatia (EU), so be aware of shipping costs and maybe US customs: MFG Crosswind flight rudder pedals - graphite color (mfg-sim.com)

But at the DCS forums they are sold sometimes in used condition in the US, like here: USA only - MFG Crosswinds V2 - For Sale - ED Forums (eagle.ru)

 

 

[Balge]

I can only echo what @Bussard already wrote: If you can spend the money or are able to save up for it good pedals, like the crosswinds, are a game changer and really enhance the experience. The crosswinds are, in the realm of premium pedals, the most cost effective option in my opinion. They have a excelent build quality and Milan is a nice guy and always keen to help if any trouble arises or if there are any questions.

[TedsOnMeds]

Alright, lots of really good helpful stuff being said here. I'm learning a ton and it seems that the flight sim gear is a lot like the race sim Gear - in that if you know you'll use it a long time, most people recommend skipping the budget/entry-level option phase right to the lower end of the more premium stuff. 

I have some options to ruminate on and I've also been discussing what gear Snaggle has (his Race and flight sim rigs are impressive to say the least) so I think I've got a pretty good overview of what's available and what people recommend.

We'll see what money and time constraints are like after I start job searching for Dispatch jobs and start paid ground school; if I have spare money after moving and/or selling things to move maybe I'll treat myself to some simulator equipment.  

[Britchot]

The Logitechs are what I used for years.  I did one mod on it, to remove the center detent, but used them until I shipped them to someone in dire need of a replacement set since I was the recipient of another's generosity. 

[TedsOnMeds]

That seems to track with Logitech stuff - I've been using my G25 Sim racing wheel/Shifter/Pedal set for about 3-5000 hours of driving time over the last 10 years and other than some of the button switches no longer working, it has no issues. Maybe I'll go with them if I can't afford a more premium option. 

[Pfeil]

I have the Thrustmaster pedals. They are quite close together so its impossible to have the stick in center between legs. Its not a problem if you have it on the right side like in F16.

[Bussard]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

I have the Thrustmaster pedals. They are quite close together so its impossible to have the stick in center between legs. Its not a problem if you have it on the right side like in F16.

...and by reaching an advanced age, it can´t  neglected that an acquired beer & BBQ belly can increase the problems by using narrow pedals too! 

[Heinrich]

14 hours ago, Moxy said:

Are there pedals out there without brakes? Other than DYI's.

Yepp: https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-warbrd-rudder-pedals.html 

[Heinrich]

My route was: Trustmaster Elite, Saitek Combat, MFG Crosswind to VPC Ace Flight. 

The Crosswinds are good but to much force needed to my liking, I was pushed back, from the stick, unless I put chokes behind the wheels or strapped the chair to the wall. Now with the VPC no problems anymore, they are very heavy and stick well to the floor. 

NB The Crosswind can be fitted with a hydraulic damper. I know @Greif has them installed, no idea what this upgrade brings.

[Britchot]

1 hour ago, Heinrich said:

NB The Crosswind can be fitted with a hydraulic damper. I know @Greif has them installed, no idea what this upgrade brings

I literally ordered this mod, this morning. 

It provides a consistent resistance instead of the spring's non-linear force.  From the MFG website on the mod that I picked up: 

Quote

What hydraulic damper does is add smooth fluid friction to rudder axis motion, and that friction can be finely adjusted by 23 increments on the damper, therefore customer has a choice of using no friction at all - and up to very hard friction.

You may ask why anyone want such friction. Well, by using damper pedals start to feel "heavy" as in real aircraft, fast changes in direction are harder to do - as in real aircraft and therefore it is harder to "overshoot the enemy" in a dogfight. Helicopter anti torque pedals are A LOT BETTER SIMULATED with damper and centering spring detatched on pedals, Airliner simulator also benefit of hydraulic feel as in real aircraft.

So this lead me to conclusion... if you can afford it - use damper on your pedals

With a helicopter, I plan to unhook the spring to avoid centering the pedals.  With planes (and spacecraft) I'll have the spring installed. 

[Greif]

@Britchot As Heinrich said, I did install the damper mod for the MFG Crosswinds and I'm quite happy with it. As it... well dampens, it smooths my small scale rudder movements, mainly those that one may use to adjust the alignment of the aircraft's sight with the intended target. As such, the sight sways less making aiming ever so slightly easier at least that's what I tell myself Besides that, I quite like the feeling