S! All,

 

With FIF XX now concluded, there has been a lot of talk about how we can make Flanders In Flames even better for 2015!

 

On Wednesday, January 7th, representatives from Black Haze, Jasta 5, Jagdgeschwader 1, and No.42 Squadron met on TeamSpeak to discuss the tournament.  What came out of this meeting were a lot of good ideas on how to move forward.

 

Not only were BH and J5 members added to the list of tournament coordinators, but it was decided that two new rules would be added to the tournaments ruleset.

 

Firstly, all participating squadrons should be prepared to fly for either the Central Powers or the Entente Powers.  And secondly, mission nights should always be run, regardless of team numbers, or the amount of discos.

 

Two specific question, however, were not answered during this meeting.

 

Instead, it was felt that these questions should be brought before the entire FIF community (as well as those outside the community who may be interested in joining).

 

I won't explain why the questions are being asked, for fear of influencing votes.  And I can't promise that the results of this poll will signal change.  I can say, however, that the commanders of all of the participating squadrons will be looking at the results.  And that this data will help us make better decisions in the future.

 

Thanks in advance for participating in this poll!

 

 

Ok, here's my post below:

 

While it's fun to fly with everyone, it s hard enough to get people together once a week. I fear that 2 sessions might become unsupportable by many.  That said, I would be in favor (or not opposed) of a different night that might support our UK/European friends. Mid-week is hard.

Once a week is enough.  I have other interest too.  If there is enough interest from the European community then by all means run another session 6 hours ealier on the night of their choosing.

I voted undecided on the 2 sessions per week.  If an additional session could be supported solely by European participants, then it shouldn't be a problem in adding one.  But unless the session is scheduled at a time that is possible for both sides of the world, I fear there might not be enough attendance to be viable, since FiF is an event that is based on numbers of mission successes to win.  It might be possible with fewer numbers, if careful attention is paid to ensuring both sides have as equal a number of pilots as possible; but most likely there will be a severe reduction in engagements because all resources will be needed for offensive operations, and participants could possibly see that as less enjoyable.

 

We in BH have a couple of European members; but they have always operated as part of our core group and not as a separate entity.  What would be most helpful to them and others like them, would be to reschedule the main event during a weekend day and time that allows both groups to participate together, without extreme demands on their sleep time.  My belief is if you were to continue with the current scheduled time with FiF, and also add an additional session during a weekend day, without designating either one as specifically for Europeans, that most people would gravitate toward the weekend time, and the other (week night) session might suffer a loss of participants.

 

As for myself, I would most likely only attend one session per week, regardless.

I also wanted to add, that with regard to the flipping teams question, if anybody voted no due to being unable to participate due to the inability to purchase planes that would be required to fly "the other" side, I would be willing to provide some gift aircraft to allow them to participate.  Perhaps that might be true of some others also.  The "gift registry" idea is in practice right now on the main RoF forum.

 

The requests for airplanes could be made privately through PMs to a single point of contact, who could notify anybody volunteering as donators what plane(s) is required and the forum username to send the gift code to; this in order to avoid any embarrassment the recipients might have in asking.  The main goal here would be to enable everybody who wants to, to participate in FiF.

My personal observation on the poll items:

 

Should re-run campaigns after they've been completed, this time with the teams flipped?

 

My personal take on this would be yes definitely.

A one or two week break and then just flip sides and run the same campaign again.

It will present both side using both aircraft sets so we can become familiar with the aircraft and eliminate the well their plane set was better “complaintsâ€. I would think that most people that are flying have most of the aircraft so I don’t think that would be an issue. But as you pointed out if someone can’t fly because they don’t have the aircraft they can remain on their same side. It also extends the designs Butzzell and Stubby have worked on giving us 8-10 weeks of flying on a set of maps.

 

Should we have two mission nights a week?

 

I completely understand the reason that this was suggested, to bring in more squads or groups especially those in the European time zones. May I suggest that we modify the day vice running it on two nights\days. Might I suggest a Sunday early afternoon. 1 PM CST as an example. Looking at a typical Sunday afternoon Syndicate and New wings can see up to 60+ people flying on line at this time. So this time might be good for a lot of people as we do see a broad range of people flying at this time. I suggest this as a possible way of keeping down the administrative headaches of running 2 different times. Just a thought as I’m not the one who has to administer the missions.

 

S!

NJ

Hawkeye makes a good point regarding a "gift registry".  Our community is large enough to support this.  So no one should feel that they need to vote no due to not having the aircraft.

I'm in favour of adding a second more European-friendly time, but I realize that some of the possible problems involved therewith have been pointed out by others above, and in the Teamspeak discussion we had a while ago another point was raised: if it's part of the same FiF tournament, that introduces the possibility that, depending on squad allocations and availability of pilots, one of the two times might be OK for balance, while the other ends up noticeably unbalanced.  I don't know how this could be prevented with certainty unless the two events are run as separate but parallel tournaments, e.g. with the possibility that some squads may end up flying Entente on the weeknight and Central on the weekend afternoon, which could get confusing and complex to administer ...

 

As for swapping sides, I've put 'undecided' because although I'm definitely in favour of squads being willing to switch sides for balance depending on numbers each time the tournament is run (the gift registry is an excellent idea!), I'm a bit hesitant about the idea of making it a requirement that each tournament will be run twice with the sides switched.  Personally, I don't mind doing it at all, but it was pointed out the other night that when this rule was introduced in Ghost Skies, it was perhaps one element that accelerated the gradual drifting away of people and squads.  Admittedly there were other factors involved that don't apply to the situation here (e.g. a burning desire to fly a completely different plane set on a vastly different front at an entirely different period would be futile in the current state of RoF!), but it may be a consideration worth bearing in mind.

 

S!

 

Maus

I'm in favor of swapping sides although I think that perhaps the campaigns should be shortened (make amount of points needed for victory less... maybe an average of three missions) that way we're not flying the same map for two months or more.

 

I'm not decided about the 2 missions per week, Saturday would be best for me, might be able to do limited time Sunday and Monday would be ok but what about practice? Keeping enough interest to have sufficient players for one mission per week is already problematic. Perhaps we could get some input from Europe?

I don't think we need to switch sides and refly campaigns unless there is some controversy regarding the plane set. In the old RB3D FiF days, some campaigns we repeated because the custom flight models were felt to greatly favor one side over the other. Since all squadrons agree to the plane sets these days and we can't alter the FMs, I don't see this as an issue. If a squad wants to switch sides for a new campaign, they are free to do so.

 

I prefer the current Wednesday war night, but would consider addition nights on a case by case basis, depending on my schedule.

Strange... Where is my post? 

 

EDIT: again - for us is good saturday from 20.00 h. CET. About flip the teams - simply no.

Voted no to switching sides if it is to re-fly the same campaign. Would rather just use the same plane set for two separate campaigns,each flown from the opposite side.

 

As for a second night,I'm undecided. J5 has a large European contingent,(50% or so),but we may be the exception.As others have suggested,a night geared toward Europe may make for some very one sided missions.I would like to see them included however. As for another night in general, I would probably make both of them,(yes it's a sickness),but I know that it would be difficult to get many of us there two nights a week. I think a weekend afternoon may be the best solution,although ironically that's tougher for me personally.

I don't think we need to switch sides and refly campaigns unless there is some controversy regarding the plane set. In the old RB3D FiF days, some campaigns we repeated because the custom flight models were felt to greatly favor one side over the other. Since all squadrons agree to the plane sets these days and we can't alter the FMs, I don't see this as an issue. If a squad wants to switch sides for a new campaign, they are free to do so.

 

I prefer the current Wednesday war night, but would consider addition nights on a case by case basis, depending on my schedule.

 

With respect, I think there are some counterpoints to this.  Although it is very true that back in the old RB3D days, there was at times severe and outspoken controversy concerning FM/DMs that were made by members of the community who normally participated on only one side, there are levels of dissatisfaction that are much less apparent.  I think a lot of us have realized over the many years that we've been members of public forums, that often the best, wisest, or at least safest policy on these forums, is not to say anything at all, considering the outright opposition or at least lack of support that will likely occur with regard to any opinions posted.  What my point is, is that most people keep their opinions to themselves, regardless of what they may truly feel.  Although someone may not be absolutely outraged by fighter FM/DMs, if, while flying on and against one side only, they may develop prejudices over time concerning "the other side".  One way this might manifest itself, without anything at all being posted on a public forum, is to simply stop showing up for events.  Have we at any time seen this?  Also it is important to consider not only the fighter aspect of matchups, but the 2-seater aspect as well, since FiF in it's current form is first and foremost an offensive event.  Even the heavy bomber aspect, which is pretty cut-and-dried, might open some eyes when experiencing what "the other side" experiences during operations. 

 

Although both sides have agreed on the best possible matchups to use for FiF, that doesn't mean anybody really thinks they are "equal", which is of course impossible, nor even desireable.  Even if they were, there would be inherent differences on the maps and target locations that could be viewed as advantageous to one side or the other.  So much of things like that are completely unintended, but nevertheless significant.  One example of that I noticed on a different server recently was trying to fly a fully loaded Roland C.II out of the designated 2-seater aerodrome.  The drome happened to be positioned in a valley surrounded by hills and trees on all sides;  the Roland simply could not take off and climb fast enough to clear them.  There was only one small gap between two hills in which the Roland could barely clear the trees.  This is something that the other side could be completely unaware of.  This is just one of many reasons why the "re-fly" would want to be re-flown on the same map.  From a single side's point of view, the map is different due to all the geographical locations and features changing on their own side, and the enemy's, which they have to operate in.

 

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post responses to other's statements.....I thought it might seem out of context, somewhere else.

 

S!  Lee and all-

S! Hawkeye

 

Fair and valid points. I have no problems switching sides and re flying campaigns if that's what the majority wants. I did fly for RAF56 in the old RB3D days.

 

S!

Hawkeye has good points and so do others such as Lee. Perhaps we could try a "see how the other half lives" single mission after the end of the campaign (or even prior to the start... sort of like our dry runs). We already kind of do this in practice / testing but it's usually "us against us". This should probably not be an official, points count mission.

I think some J2 guys can Make this for the central side. I'll post it on out forum.

Another thought on the switching sides topic... perhaps we could fly not as Central and Entente sides but rather as Blue and Red sides switching from Entente to Central and vise verse every other mission or halfway through the campaign. This would appeal to me since one of my goals is to improve my skills in all planesets and scenarios. It would take away from the historical aspect but should achieve a truly balanced contest. Just a thought... talk among yourselves. 

Another thought on the switching sides topic... perhaps we could fly not as Central and Entente sides but rather as Blue and Red sides switching from Entente to Central and vise verse every other mission or halfway through the campaign. This would appeal to me since one of my goals is to improve my skills in all planesets and scenarios. It would take away from the historical aspect but should achieve a truly balanced contest. Just a thought... talk among yourselves.

That could be just as cool, and however it's done, will make a big difference, regardless. Basically, we all love WWI aircraft, don't we? Personally, I love 'em all, but am not going to try to speak for anybody else in that regard. It's a great challenge to be good on both sides and I think would add a lot of interest.

 

That said, I sure would hope that in any blue side / red side scenario, the squadrons or people that make up each side, would vary instead of being the same all the time. For those of you that have never tried this, it's absolutely amazing how much fun it is to fly in cooperation with others that you've traditionally always been against. How eye-opening it is to fly along side your nemesis as a wingman! Somebody whome you've villainized in your own mind often ends up becoming a great friend, and future opposition relations take on a whole new understanding. There was one single event in RB3D that used this concept, and for me personally it was a real education. People and squadrons that had always been in opposition, groups that had developed an absolute hatred of one another, suddenly became human beings that one could identify with and see amazing similarities with.

I, as No.42 CO, will gladly have my Squad fly with or fight against any Squad that is in FiF now. It doesn't matter what aircraft either. It would be fun sometime for 42 and JG1 to fly together. I think it would be a hoot.

Hawkeye

 

The tourney of which you speak of in RB3d was called Flying Coffins.

It played two times as a 6 & 8 week tourney's.

Plus during the week it played as a two hour nightly open server game, which was quite successfule.

It was as you say a new and fun game format that brought out the best of pilots tword each other.

The tourneys only ended because the game server was no longer available to me. And RB was on its very last leg.

J30 enyoyed creating and hosting this tournament and all the positive comments made it well worth the effort.

 

S!

J30<>Reinamann

R, thanks for the info!  That was one fine event.  Not enough credit was given to you guys.  The way that plane types were allocated, the teams scheduling, and the scoring system were all very well thought out.  It was very much a relief from the cut-throat atmospheres of RBWL, WF, and the rest.  Salute! 

Thanks Hawkeye S!