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Scores and Blue team Wen. Turnout


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S! All


We understand that Blue team is concerned with recent low turnout on the Wednesday session of FIF and the effect on scores.  The Admins have been looking at this. The situation is that No. 42 Sq. has lost several players from this event. They were the powerhouse team usually fielding 10 to 12 pilots. We have not had enough pilots sign up to replace those numbers in that time slot.


Please remember that while turnout does effect the ability to accomplish missions, in game events are very important. We had one Saturday session with 34 Blue team and 28 red team pilots. The score was a tie at 7 each.  While the in game events and teamwork have over ridden the effect of player numbers in the past, the present Wednesday team imbalance is affecting the scores.


We would like to hear from Blue team members as to their assessment of the situation and suggestions on how to move forward.


Some of the options we have been looking at:


1. Cancel Wen.     It works but there are people that only Fly Wen and they get left out.

2. Move players from Red team to Blue team.  This requires people willing to switch sides and would take some time to organize even if people are willing to switch. If done at the end of Part A, these people would fly the same planes in part B.

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I listened very carefully to what everyone was discussing last night until I had to go to bed.


The tournament definitely has a "pickle" on it's hands.  However, from what I could understand from the discussion, all of the suggestions proposed appeared to possibly promote even further issues if any one of them are implemented as all of the registrants or at least their leadership would have to agree to such changes and given the differing time-zones this may not be possible even if everyone was willing as some already noted.


If you use one of the suggestions that affects the overall scoring system (ie: using dead pilots or reduced pilot rosters) than such a change may fundamentally cause a major flaw in the overall scoring system since the standard one has been used up until now.  The possible variables instituted as a result of such changes will then affect how the second set of scores are determined making them at variance with the original method.  Thus, you are left with only one possibility to keep the scores clean and that is to end the first part or the tournament when the teams switches sides and initiate a new tournament with a new scoring system based upon the pilot rosters however this is to be formulated.


In the end, any changes to the current tournament and keeping it as such is messing with statistical relevance making the final scores suspect as to actual accuracy as to who did better.


Just my two-cents...

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I still vote for cancelling Wednesday after this next mission or at least separate the scores.  To continue as we are now means that no matter how well the guys on Saturday perform they can not win due to the deficit of Wednesday.  I really feel bad about that and it's not fair for them.  I have watched several of the long time blue team players stop showing up to fly during this campaign and some only show up out of sense of duty.  "What's the point" is a common phrase.  There have been a couple of new to FiF guys this campaign they are all fighter pilots and this is a bomber campaign.  We usually don't have enough 2 seater pilots to assign one plane with no escort to each of the five fixed primary targets.  I'm amazed at the number of points we have for this session. 


I definitely don't agree with trying to change teams mid campaign, that will never work out right if done hastily.  From what I hear on TS, I have no confidence that Wednesday Blue Team attendance will remain as strong as it has been.  Hookers and free liquor may help but that brings up other problems.  Sarcasm aside, I'll press ahead to the finish with what I've got and during the BA break the format of FiF will need to be adjusted.

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1, should not even be considered. The event has started and should run as is.


Any decision to cancel should be made prior to the start.


2. this options denies the whole point of swapping airplane sets, unless you want the same planes all of the time.



What should be looked at is where have the pilots gone and why?

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I never understood the switching of planes in the first place.


If JG1 sim-pilots fly German aircraft and Blue-Team pilots fly Allied aircraft, why would you want a system where each team switches and places pilots in planes that they would all be less competent at?  Unless of course, that is the point...

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There are three main reasons to switch sides in FIF.


Firstly, it allows everyone to fly everything, which some people really like.  It's a little variety, and a chance to see what it's like on the other side.  Plus, it gives you the chance to fly aircraft that you bought but never use.


Secondly, at least in North America, there are very few Entente squadrons left within the Rise of Flight community.  Some of this is due to FM changes.  Some of this is due to attrition.  Whatever the cause, it means that if we're going to have a tournament, Central squadrons will have to be on both sides, flying against each other.  And the flip keeps this fair and equal.


Thirdly, flipping sides eliminates most (but not all) plane-set debates.  Everyone will have the chance to fly everything within the tournament.  And therefore, it helps eliminate the hint of favoritism.

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What should be looked at is where have the pilots gone and why?



S! Loopy


Darn good question. In the past we have not had a maximum or minimum for pilot slots. We have relied on real life to set the numbers. Who can show up? Who is busy and can not show up? This has always lead to an imbalance in the number of players. That actually imitates real life. Neither side in WWI said "Oh, They only have 6 planes up today. We will only put up 6 planes."  For the most part this imbalance has evened out. Please remember that one of the design goals of FIF was to have so many missions to accomplish over such a large area that each team would be forced to use small flights to accomplish most of the objectives. This meant that a small imbalance would not have a great effect.


Many blame the loss of pilots due to FM changes. This is probably true. Many have probably moved on to DCS, BoS, BoM, War Thunder or World of Tanks.


Considering this is the 100 year anniversary of the war, I would have expected much more interest in WWI aviation. Where are the great Canadian players that so dominated Red Baron 3D. Ah, well.


We are left with two questions.


1. How do we get these pilots back?


2. What do we do if we can not get them back?

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Basically Saturdays are a success, the server is as full as anybody would want it to be, and the sides are at the very least close enough to being balanced, if not downright favorable to the Blue team.  So I would say forget moving pilots from Red to Blue because it solves one problem, to create another.  The Saturday sessions also show the problem is not a lack of willing pilots in RoF, just willing pilots who are available on Wednesdays.


We can hope more pilots will show up on Wednesdays for whatever reason.  However, judging by what Wrongway has said, this seems very unlikely.  If people are asking "what's the point", well I guess I'd have to tell them the POINT is fun, not who wins the score.  If it's clear nobody on Blue/Wed is having fun anymore because they have little chance of success or survival, who am I to tell them they should do more with less; they're already doing that, and maybe they're tired of it.


So I would suggest the only real question is when to eliminate the Wednesday sessions; immediately after XXIIIa, or after XXIIIb runs its course, thereby completing the entire event as planned.  The thing is, I don't really see the point of telling Blue team that they MUST finish the whole thing as is.  It's not like you can MAKE them come; it might even discourage the Saturday pilots and spoil that event too.


So I would ask Blue team to seriously consult all their pilots both Saturday and Wednesday, and consider whether they've reached that point and let us all know, because that's the only way the best decision can be reached.

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I would say that option 1, canceling the Wednesday competition makes the most sense as many people can not be there as they have school or jobs to go to early on Thursday.  I have always wondered why this was taking place on a week day anyway, unless we're just trying to get it over with as early as possible.  Actually, I would think Saturday or Sunday, either one, would work just fine as it is on Saturday the turnout is much better.  


As for option 2, it doesn't make a lot of sense to break up a team that is used to working together.  Bringing pilots from one team to the other benefits the second team more that just numbers, as they know the tactics their newly found enemies use.  That may bring an undue disadvantage to the team losing pilots.


If the blue team can't get their pilots motivated enough to show up, that's not the red team's fault, and should not be their problem.  Perhaps they should work on that.


My vote, if there is one, is that option# 1.  It's really the only viable option.

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I feel like splitting up Wednesday and Saturday scores will kill Wednesdays anyhow. Trying to find a group to move to blue to even mid week turnout without creating a greater imbalance on Saturday is impossible and would likely only result in many of the transferred pilots not showing up on Wednesdays anyhow.


Just kill Wednesdays. Maybe shift Saturdays a bit so it allows more people to fly if we can, but even now the server has been damn near full.


But do we kill Wednesdays now or wait until XXIV?

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I have carefully considered all the items above, all great points.


1. Splitting the Wed teams how will that affect Saturday?

2. Will remaking the teams only result in 14 players a side on Wednesday, because pilots have moved on to other things?

3. Are we attempting to keep Wednesday because that is where FiF started? Other reasons?


All thing grow, change and unfortunately some die.


4. Is it time to put Wednesday to bed?

5. Saturday's seem to be very popular, how many Wednesday pilots couldn't fly on Saturday? I for one have cut back to Wednesday only but can and would change to Saturdays if that is the prevailing desire of the majority of the pilots. Having to up the pilots slots on the server speaks to the strength of the event on Saturday.


So IMHO, unless I miss the mark and the number of pilots proves me wrong, time to put Wednesday to bed and move on.


Thanks for reading, :)

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Neither options work for me.  All points as mentioned above are accurate.  Saturdays I ALWAYS work, anyone in retail does.  Wednesday nights I sometimes make it home on time for this event or even practice, but it is late for me as well.  Might consider a longer break between events, they seem to be coming fast and furious on each others heels these days.  


The second option has always bothered me as well, I don't even like switching sides for part 2, I don't fly entente well, and I joined a Central/German Squadron to fly Central/German, but I understand it is part of the plan for most tournaments in most games we fly/operate in.  So I support it.


I do think that the other Squadron leaders (IF they are concerned) need to poll their absent pilots and find out why the numbers are dropping for any participation in anything...why guess, ask.



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Hi All,


Last night, after Wednesdays mission, we had a meeting to discuss the state of the FIF campaign.  Specifically, what to do with the low Blue turnout on Wednesday nights.


Here is what was decided:

  • Phase A ended last night with a Red Victory.
  • Phase B will start this Saturday (February 13th), with the Blue Team flying Central and the Red Team flying Entente.
  • Temporarily, Wednesday and Friday nights will become a fun-fly night / testing night for those who are interested.  This will be open to the greater ROF community.
  • As a result, only Saturday missions will count towards the final score.
  • With the loss of Wednesday as a mission night, only 40 points will be needed for a team to win the Phase.
  • After the end of FIF XXIII, we will then reexamine the teams (as well as Wednesday night) and come up with a more permanent solution for FIF XXIV.
Let us know what you think!
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